The chairman of Yisrael Beiteinu places responsibility for the repeated failure to apply sovereignty on the shoulders of Prime Minister Netanyahu: “Even Smotrich knows that as long as he is prime minister, sovereignty, even partial sovereignty, will not be."
The interview first appeared in Issue 19 of Ribonut (Sovereignty).
Unlike other interviewees in this journal, Knesset member Avigdor Lieberman, chairman of Yisrael Beiteinu, is convinced that sovereignty will not be applied, at least not in the near future. He points the accusatory finger, and some will say, unsurprisingly, at the Prime Minister, Binyamin Netanyahu.
“As long as Netanyahu is prime minister, nothing will happen,” he states decisively. “I hear the declarations and see the maps they present, but I say clearly, as long as Bibi is prime minister, nothing will happen. We remember his promises about the Jordan Valley like the promises regarding Khan al-Ahmar that he rescinded at the last minute. We have no illusions here.”
“I have raised the issue of sovereignty in the Jordan Valley several times in the framework of the Allon Plan, a region with the broadest national consensus,” says Lieberman when asked to delineate his map. “At the beginning of the Knesset’s winter session, I will propose legislation for sovereignty in Ma'ale Adumim. I believe the Yesha Council is wrong when it adheres to an ‘all or nothing’ approach. It is stated in our sources: ‘if you grasp many, you grasp nothing’ – you need to take what you can get. If it is possible only in the Jordan Valley, we will take the Jordan Valley; if it is possible only in Ma'ale Adumim, we will take Ma'ale Adumim.”
Lieberman emphasizes that ideally, the plan presented by the Yesha Council to apply sovereignty to 82 percent of the territory is indeed preferable, but “if there is an opportunity only for something partial, even if only sovereignty in the settlement blocs, it is worth it.”
Regarding the concern that failure to apply sovereignty to the areas surrounding the settlement blocs could be interpreted as a basis for establishment of a Palestinian state, Lieberman responds: “There is no Palestinian state. Anyone who speaks about a Palestinian state is speaking nonsense and should check what medications he is taking in the morning. A Palestinian state is a complete sham that has no feasibility. There is no such thing. We need to pursue other directions, but even there we must proceed without fantasies and in a practical manner.”
He adds and comments that the only step he is willing to characterize as a significant achievement, even if it has not yet been implemented, is the construction initiative in the E-1 territory between Ma'ale Adumim and Jerusalem. “Smotrich announced and approved it, but we need to translate this announcement into practical steps, meaning issuing a tender and building permits. If this indeed happens, I will be willing to give credit where credit is due and say that it is a great achievement. Meanwhile, I do not see this process progressing in practice.”
To our question whether his lack of confidence in the chances of sovereignty under Netanyahu's rule stems from international pressure that will be exerted upon him, or because Netanyahu himself has not yet explicitly declared support, Lieberman responds “everything together.”
“I know Netanyahu intimately and know he has no intention of doing this. He will always have excuses and tales about the United States, about Europe, about the Abraham Accords and more.”
Would he himself, were he in the Prime Minister’s office, disregard international pressure? “G-d forbid. One need not ignore it. It is possible to spearhead an intelligent initiative, but first it is necessary to defeat Hamas. In my opinion, Netanyahu neither wishes nor is capable of defeating Hamas. He seeks to perpetuate the status-quo until the elections. It cannot be that it has already been two years and we have been unable to defeat Hamas. The hostages could have long ago been returned and Hamas could have been eliminated. When I was Defense Minister and Eyal Zamir was commander of the Southern Command, he submitted to me the “Solid Rock” program for complete conquest of the Strip and dismantling Hamas within 45 days, and we have been wasting our time for two years already. Against all the Arab countries it took six days, in the Yom Kippur War it took 19 days, and in the war with Iran 12 days, and here we have been at it for two years already. That is why I say that as long as he's prime minister there will be no sovereignty, not over Ma'ale Adumim, not in the Jordan Valley, and certainly not over 82 percent of the territory. I imagine that Smotrich understands this too.”
Regarding his own plan, Lieberman elaborates: “First of all, abandon all responsibility for the Gaza Strip. Right now, the government is funding Hamas, which according to the IDF controls 90 percent of humanitarian aid. This is the primary method employed by Hamas to fund itself. Therefore, we should have clearly stated that as long as Red Cross representatives do not visit our hostages, there are no supplies and no humanitarian aid. We need to abandon all responsibility for Gaza. We will not supply electricity, water, fuel, nothing at all; close all the border crossings and give the IDF absolute operational freedom. When we identify any activity there for military fortification, we act immediately, even if we need to conduct ground raids every week or attack every day.
The approach must be like it is toward any hostile territory. Regarding Gaza’s future, let the Egyptians, the Arab League, the UN, or Islamic states take responsibility. Not us.”
Israeli-Jordanian Cooperation
Regarding Judea and Samaria, Lieberman believes Israel “must achieve cooperation with the Jordanians and coordinate with them an arrangement where we are responsible for Area C and the Jordanians for activity in Areas A and B. I do not wish to take responsibility for Shechem and Tulkarm and I also do not want a vacuum to be created there, which would enable a rapid Hamas takeover. It is clear to us that Abu Mazen is not a partner for anything.”
True to his approach stated at the beginning of this conversation, to take what is possible, Lieberman maintains that at this stage the proper thing to do is to apply sovereignty to territory with broad national consensus, meaning Area C. “Gush Etzion, Ma'ale Adumim, Ariel, and the Jordan Valley regarding which everyone knows that they will be ours in any arrangement. Take what you can. Regarding the rest, we will conduct negotiations, when those who are significant for us are the Jordanians, with whom we have the longest border, from Eilat to the triangle of borders in the north. I do not understand why there is a disconnect between our government and Jordan.”
And what about the idea of territorial exchange with the Palestinian state, which in the past stirred up Israeli Arabs against Lieberman, but actually includes recognition of a Palestinian state? Has this idea been abandoned? “I have not abandoned it. It will need to be assessed at the first opportunity. Right now, it is not certain the circumstances are suitable, but at the time, Trump also spoke about territorial and population exchanges. I think that it is an excellent solution.”
Does this mean recognition of some kind of Palestinian state with which that exchange can be implemented? “There is no Palestinian state and no Palestinian Authority. It is all a sham. There is only Abu Mazen and his gang living off our bayonets. If the IDF abandons responsibility, does not provide support and does not cooperate with them, Hamas will gain control of Judea and Samaria within a week, so the only serious stable factor that has significant interest in Judea and Samaria is the Jordanians, and an agreement can be reached with them. In my opinion, negotiations with a normal state would enable us to make significant progress with them".